Talk:Main Page

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Main Page error reports[edit]

To report an error on today's or tomorrow's Main Page, please add it to the appropriate section below.

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Errors in the summary of today's or tomorrow's featured article[edit]

TFA today[edit]

TFA tomorrow[edit]

Errors in In the news[edit]

  • Apparently we have an image of the aircraft, so that should be used. Also it appears that the airline are now being more cautious, suggesting they cannot verify that all people on board have been killed per the BBC, so perhaps it should just be returned to "with 66 people onboard". Or "with all 66 people onboard feared dead." Or something. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:38, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Fixed, as suggested. --Tone 15:13, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
      • Image still not changed. Mjroots (talk) 20:03, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Errors in today's or tomorrow's On this day[edit]

OTD today[edit]

A coalition of Russian medieval states defeated the Livonian Brothers of the Sword at the Battle of Wesenberg near present-day Rakvere, Estonia. When I went to link, article said both sides claimed victory but Livonian's likely prevailed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raymondkaiser (talkcontribs) 18:57, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Yoko Ono - refs need for discography and "books and monographs" sections. Really surprising for a GA. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
    What’s the error? Fish+Karate 02:36, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Anything that’s not fit for the main page should be replaced with another eligible item. Stephen 04:39, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    It fails the requirements of OTD. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:50, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Replaced with Swraj Paul, Baron Paul. howcheng {chat} 09:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Which would be fine iff I could verify his date of birth... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:39, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    It's in the citation at the end of the very first sentence. howcheng {chat} 19:24, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    There isn't a citation at the end of the very first sentence, either in the or the first section of prose. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Battle of Wesenberg (1268) - The template suggests a Novgorodian victory, yet the article states the following: "Medieval accounts of the battle vary with both sides claiming victory, however the Livonian victory being more plausible..." Why should the main page template contradict the article? Juliussasar (talk) 10:29, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Same here, support previous. On main page should be smth like: 1268 The Battle of Wesenberg near present-day Rakvere, Estonia, between a coalition of Russian medieval states and the Livonian Brothers of the Sword; contemporary accounts of the battle contradict each other, both sides claiming victory. BirgittaMTh (talk) 10:47, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
OK, rewritten. howcheng {chat} 19:24, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
That's much better, but I my view still a little bit imprecise. There were not only the Sword Brothers but a coalition of forces. Since 1237 the Sword Brothers were a branch of the Teutonic Order, named Livonian Order. Regarding the victory claims, the article states: Since the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle identifies the battles where the forces of the Livonian Order or its predecessor, the Livonian Brothers of the Sword were on the losing side, like Battle of Saule or Battle on the Ice correctly, there is little reason to assume the outcome of this battle is stated incorrectly. My suggestion:
1268 – The Battle of Wesenberg in present-day Estonia between combined forces of Novgorod and Pskov Republic and the Livonian Order with it's allies results in the retreat of Russian forces from Estonia.
--Furfur Diskussion 19:31, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

OTD tomorrow[edit]

  • "most violent eruption in the recorded history of South America." the source states: "largest explosive eruption in historical time in the Andes", less journalistic and more specific. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:29, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    I copy-pasted from the article, which is close to what the source says. howcheng {chat} 09:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Well, not quite. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:43, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Considering that all of South America's volcanoes are in the Andes, it's the same thing. howcheng {chat} 19:27, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
    Wouldn't that then make it all of America? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Errors in the current or next Did you know...[edit]

DYK current[edit]

DYK next[edit]

Errors in today's or tomorrow's featured picture[edit]

POTD today[edit]

POTD tomorrow[edit]

  • "To date, he is the last Dutch monarch to die whilst on the throne." where is that referenced? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:52, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Errors in the summary of the last or next featured list[edit]

General discussion[edit]

carrying Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster as a dummy payload?[edit]

The horse has bolted. People who care about this are cordially invited to spend more time at WT:ITN and related pages to ensure that upcoming hooks meet their expectations, but this will be off ITN before the discussion has reached any kind of conclusion. Guy (Help!) 13:19, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

why mention this on itn? tesla advertising?-- (talk) 03:25, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

It was nominated at WP:ITNC, as it was in the news, and since new rocket launches are on the recurring events list WP:ITNR it was presumed notable, and posted once the article got a quality update. No more, no less. If you disagree with what is posted, feel free to participate at ITNC. 331dot (talk) 03:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Just wanna point out that the second half of that sentence is unnecessary and looks like advertising for Tesla. -- (talk) 03:43, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Part of the reason this was newsworthy, aside from the rocket itself, was the unusual payload. That fact was mentioned in the sources and news stories. It isn't advertising any more than the story on the Super Bowl is advertising the Super Bowl or NFL. The blurb does not encourage readers to buy a Tesla. Musk might be advertising, but as long as RS discuss it, that's immaterial as far as we are concerned. 331dot (talk) 03:49, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Great! Musk does it again. -- (talk) 09:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Although I neglected to participate in that segment of the nomination process, I do also think that mentioning Elon Musk's expensive payload is also unnecessary and just advertising on his behalf.--WaltCip (talk) 11:17, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't think that the BBC is advertising for Elon Musk. The fact that the car was the payload was widely reported. We didn't put that in ourselves. 331dot (talk) 11:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I was surprised to see that, too. Not useful or necessary information. zzz (talk) 11:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Apparently the sources disagree with you that the payload of a rocket isn't notable. 331dot (talk) 11:41, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • So is the issue people have that the car was mentioned at all, or that it says "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster"(the title of the article on the car). If it just said "Elon Musk's car" would that be better? I do note that the article has a merge discussion underway. 331dot (talk) 11:43, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No, that would not be better. The dummy payload is not worth mentioning at all. zzz (talk) 12:01, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
In fact it would be even worse because the focus would then be on Elon Musk. Just say "sports car". It would be like, instead of a blurb that says "earthquake in Chile," instead saying "Donald Trump reacts to news of an earthquake in Chile."--WaltCip (talk) 12:03, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I respectfully do not understand at all as to how the payload of a rocket is not worth mentioning or how it is "advertising". No one is being asked to buy something and it doesn't promote Tesla or SpaceX to simply state what the payload is. It would be like not mentioning the teams that played in the Super Bowl. It is integral to the story as reported in reliable sources. If you disagree with it being written about in reliable sources, you should speak to those reliable sources. 331dot (talk) 12:07, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
@WaltCip: I could live with "sports car", especially since the article on the car may be merged, but I think it slightly disingenuous to readers to not simply state what the car is just as reliable sources do. 331dot (talk) 12:07, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah we could just delete that entire clause. There's no good reason for us to advertise his marketing stunt, the rocket is the reason why this got onto ITN. Or just say 'carrying a dummy payload'. Modest Genius talk 12:10, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No one is advertising anything, unless the BBC and all other reliable sources are in the tank for Elon Musk. It doesn't advertise the Philadelphia Eagles to post that they won the Super Bowl. 331dot (talk) 12:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I disagree. The Eagles were intrinsic participants in their event, whilst the Tesla is a product which was tacked on for marketing purposes. What the BBC chooses to put in their headline is up to them, it doesn't determine our ITN blurbs. Modest Genius talk 12:16, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The motivation of Musk isn't relevant to us. We just do what the sources do. It's not "advertising" unless Elon Musk called up the press and paid them to write about his car being the payload. I'd be happy to see any evidence of that. The Eagles are making quite a bit of money hawking merchandise after winning the Super Bowl; posting it to ITN certainly helps them, too. 331dot (talk) 12:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
That's not the same thing. Being a football game, there needs to be a team on one side and a team on the other side. It's an integral part of the game. Strapping a car to a rocket is not integral to the SpaceX project.--WaltCip (talk) 12:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The superbowl blurb makes no mention of the "US Bank Stadium", which would just be tacked on and quite frankly useless information. It makes no difference where it was played and what sponsor name the stadium had. Just like this dummy payload is trivia. And i am sure many reliable sources made mention where the superbowl was played as well. (talk) 12:43, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
It would be trivia if there was an overabundance of cars orbiting the sun. This is the first one. 331dot (talk) 12:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Which would be fair if getting a car into space was the actual news story here. It isn't though. The news is that the Falcon Heavy had its first launch. Hopefully it will carry important, even groundbraking, payloads in the future but this is just a factoid tacked on to the important part, the launch. Although i admit a great factoid and a great bit of marketing. But important in the grand scheme of things... probably not. (talk) 13:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I know when consensus goes against me but I still feel that the blurb should at least say "sports car" as WaltCip suggests. It's disingenuous to readers otherwise, which is who we should be thinking about. 331dot (talk) 12:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't think we have to change anything. I am unconcerned that the name of a company sometimes gets mentioned on our main page. Stating facts is not advertising. Leave the blurb as it is.--Jayron32 13:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I found it newsworthy that the dummy payload was such an object of absolutely no use sciencewise and with a personal and commercial link to the boss. This is quite a contrast with what we are used to from NASA, for instance. This must also be why news organisations reported it. So I would like to see the blurb left as it is with the information retained. Jmchutchinson (talk) 14:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Which would be okay if the object being satellited was just reported as a "sports car". But the fact that it's a Tesla Roadster is neither relevant nor helpful to the reader.--WaltCip (talk) 14:17, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • It's fine. I'm expecting my complimentary Model S to be delivered this afternoon, so please don't delete from the main page! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:03, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I object! I was the one who posted it, do I get one as well? :P --Tone 14:12, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
      • I nominated it nice and early just to make sure Elon was happiest with me... So sorry, no. But I'll send you a photo.... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Change it -- of course, it is advertising - and we certainly don't have to use it to get the information across that it is a sports car made by the owner - in fact, if that is the information you want to get a across, that is exactly the way you should say it (not use product names) . Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:15, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    Seriously? You think those words on the main page of Wikipedia is going to suddenly drive someone into making a $150,000 purchase? SERIOUSLY?? Actually, a very important part of the story was that it was Musk's own car, the first car in space (that'll be quiz question in a few years, what was the make of the first car to fly past Mars...?) and has formed the basis of a considerable element of the story. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Obviously irrelevant - the whole point of the stunt is advertising. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Obviously not. The whole point of the launch is to sell commercial satellite launches via SpaceX. Getting all worked up about a Tesla car being mentioned but not about SpaceX being mentioned, both having commercial interests, is somewhat bizarre!!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
If the whole point of the launch is selling commercial satellite launches, you have just emphasized again the make of the car is irrelevant and just advertising. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No, you missed the point again. Why bitch about super-cheap Tesla cars being advertised and not super-expensive SpaceX launch vehicles? All or nothing. I don't see you complaining about the free publicity to Musk's commercial space business which is worth orders of magnitude more than the fun car stuff, why is that? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No. I got your point, you like this advertising, so let's advertise away ('sexy', I think you said, at one point). Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No, you missed it for the fourth or fifth time. SpaceX is ok but Tesla is not? You're joking, right? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Not joking at all. I got your point, again. The objection is it's advertising, you response is 'yes, its advertising but it's good advertising.' Evidently ITN likes to run advertising. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
"ITN likes to run advertising"? Like ITN is Skynet or something, determined to ruin human life by naming the brand of the car. Yet your objection is still half-baked, no objection to SpaceX in the title, yet a full-bodied objection to Tesla Roadster? The former will make billions, the latter not. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
That's ridiculous. Space rockets are out of people's pockets. Cars are not. Even though very few people can afford a Tesla Roadster, it's still an affordable brand for many. It just promotes it as a product. There is no need fo this in a so-called encyclopedia. (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Quite bizarre in Wikipedia that you call compromise, 'half-baked', - especially when your contention is 'it is advertising', so take out the product placement, under NOT. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No, you missed the point again. It's not a "compromise", it's half-baked. Either we allow Elon to advertise his rockets and his cars, or we don't allow advertising on the main page. I would go get an RFC if I were you, this conversation (and consensus) is strongly against you and it's only getting worse (for you). The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I got your point again, you've made it abundantly clear it's advertising - you just want more of it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
you just want more of it where do you get that idea from? Some people would call that .... a lie. Or more lightly, an unsubstantiated claim. Or something worse, something which could see somebody being blocked. Be careful here... The Rambling Man (talk) 22:51, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
What? You said the purpose of this launch is advertising, and somehow that means we have to also place the Tesla product -- that's product placement - that's more. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No need for what? The endless diatribe on so-called promotional posts by ITN or something else? I don't follow most of this, absolutely nobody who reads Wikipedia will suddenly go from not buying a Tesla Roadster to buying a Tesla Roadster based on the two words tucked away on the main page. SpaceX is a fully commercial organisation and promoting its rocket launch is by far more profitable for Elon than the chat about his Roadster. And best of all? All you complaining about the inclusion of the name of the car, see Streisand effect. You're doing by far more damage here than the two words on the main page!!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:15, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No one reads this slop. Not even Barbara. (talk) 22:19, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Google does though, so the more people bitch about it, the more it's up there. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Not even the first electric car in space. The lunar roving vehicles did that in the 1970s. Modest Genius talk 14:42, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    A rover is not a car! And certainly not as sexy as a Tesla! Nice try though. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    Oh yes it is. Like the wonderful Rover 75. Don't insult the cream of British automotive engineering. (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    The "first car in space"? Are we going to be putting more up there? Is there some sort of scientific rationale behind orbiting cars now? Seems a bit puzzling to me.--WaltCip (talk) 14:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    Of course we will, especially when we develop off-earth civilisation. It's just a matter of time. And besides, we're already advertising a commercial organisation by saying that Falcon Heavy was made by SpaceX. I think it's time for people to find something else to do! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    I seriously doubt orbiting the CEO of Tesla's car is going to be the "one small step for man" towards off-earth civilization. At least Sputnik opened up the possibility of traveling to the Moon.--WaltCip (talk) 15:58, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    I'm finding it hard to follow your line of argument. It's an interesting element of the story. I'm not sure anyone said it was like Sputnik? I thought this was about advertising, which of course we're doing much better for Elon by noting SpaceX (I'm certain he's going to make more money from that venture than his nice cars!!!). The Rambling Man (talk) 16:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    It's not hard to follow his line of argument at all, it's only interesting if one finds advertising interesting, which is actually the whole point of advertising in the first place. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    No, it's fine. After all, we put a disco ball into space even though it's basically junk. Why not a car on top of it? If that's what SpaceX wants to blow money on instead of doing actual aeronautical research, good for them. And as it turns out, Wikipedia will gladly be their shill.--WaltCip (talk) 17:23, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    Wikipedia is only choosing to be a shill here -- we can choose not shill (it is in our NOT policy after-all). 17:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • If you agree the main story is "The SpaceX launch vehicle Falcon Heavy makes its maiden flight" then you can quite simply remove "carrying Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster as a dummy payload", which is just a car advert. Can someone please explain why that hasn't happened yet. zzz (talk) 17:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    Because asserting something doesn't make it true. You and others have asserted that the section you want removed is "just a car advert", but anyone can type any random set of words, and just typing those words doesn't instantly make them true. Specifically, other people disagree that the phrase you want removed is a form of advertising, and consider it a vital part of the story. You can't just get your way by asserting something and then demanding that because you wrote it, it must be the truth. In this case, a consensus-building discussion will take place and see if action needs to happen. Give this discussion time to play out. If enough other people agree with your assertion, then it will be acted on. If there is not consensus in that direction, it will not. But consensus building takes time. Give it time. --Jayron32 18:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

"A vital part of the story". No, the dummy payload is not a vital part of the story. zzz (talk) 18:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

  • You have suggested that it is not. Others have suggested that it is. Repeating yourself doesn't give your vote more weight. Like I said, this is how WP:CONSENSUS-building works. Repeating yourself doesn't mean you win. We'll see how the consensus goes over time, and after the discussion has reached a natural conclusion, then we'll make a decision on how to go. --Jayron32 18:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
This news story has come up in conversation with friends, family, and coworkers. Nobody cares that a new kind of rocket was launched. For every single person the story was the car launched into space. The Tesla isn't just a part of the story, it is THE story. TimBuck2 (talk) 18:38, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • For most people I know, the story wasn't that rocket, the story was the car. I have heard from more people "He did you hear about the car that was launched into space?" than I did "Hey did you hear about that large rocket they launched?" -DJSasso (talk) 18:22, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

What makes you think that I am repeating myself? zzz (talk) 18:16, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Because you have now multiple times indicated that you think that the dummy payload portion of the blurb is not vital and should be removed. The first was at 11:39, the second at 12:01, the third at 17:24 and the fourth just now at 18:04. Since you wrote all four of them yourself, I am quite surprised that you have no memory of doing so. Very odd. Anyways the first time you mentioned it was enough. --Jayron32 18:22, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

No, that was the first time I saw someone saying the dummy payload was "a vital part of the story". But you just keep up the personal attacks, that might work for you. zzz (talk) 18:25, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I haven't attacked you. I've disagreed with you. If you want to be taken seriously, you should recognize the difference. You can't just go around claiming that people call out errors in your logic are personally attacking you. Saying "personal attack" is not a trump card that you pull out to win. You still have to actually make a reasonable, logical, and evidentiary-based argument to do that. --Jayron32 20:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I think I know what a personal attack looks like, and what "call out errors in logic" looks like. This was the former. zzz (talk) 08:51, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Could you perhaps quote that then? Because I've not called you any names, I've not said anything about you as a person; I 've not attacked you at all.--Jayron32 12:44, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Musk used a car for two reasons: 1. advertising, and 2. the same playful reason he used the "Don't Panic" slogan, and named previous drone ships "Just Read the Instructions" and "Of Course I'll Still Love You". Musk doesn't profit from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. So it isn't either advertising or not advertising. It's both. Art LaPella (talk) 18:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

  • The BBC also reported on how the payload was used in an educational context, viz. teachers showing the amusing images of the Earth as seen through the car windscreen, to inspire interest in science and technology in their pupils. (Before dismissing it as just a silly picture showing part of a dummy payload, consider the cultural impact of Pale Blue Dot, and, earlier, the purported links between the first photographs of Earth taken from space and the development of the environmental movement.) Such contexts are reasons why the dummy payload is a story, and such contexts are not just advertising. And Wikipedia does have an educational mission. MPS1992 (talk) 18:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Although, I think changing "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" to "Elon Musk's sports car" would be a nice compromise that would still achieve the purpose while moving some more of the clickthrough to the main subject. MPS1992 (talk) 18:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I have to agree with some of the comments above. When people are talking about this, it isn't the launch itself, the size of the launch vehicle or even the fact that the boosters landed themselves it is about the car. That is the part of the story that people think is imporant. ~ GB fan 18:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The story is the advertising? Well you're comment managed to say all that "important" stuff, without any product placement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No, GB fan said that people are talking about the car. No-one could really care less what Tesla it was, what PS it develops, what in-car options it has, they care about seeing a dummy in a spacesuit driving a car in space, and a nice car at that. But it was Musk's own Tesla that he sent out, so why skim the facts just because we're somehow feeling precious about "advertising" Tesla and not SpaceX? Wow. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:41, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
So, then Wikipedia is presenting it as advertising -- you just said, no one cares about the car's make and the cars make is not important. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No, you missed the point, Wikipedia is not advertising Tesla cars, if anything it's advertising SpaceX. In either case, what % of of audience do you truly believe it will significantly impact? Then look back of the swaths of text and realise this is a classic example of flogging a dead horse. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedia is advertising -- that's the reason Tesla is there, instead of a 'block of metal' or just saying, 'car'. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:52, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely. This is what brand managers call "product placement" par excellence. Surely a pinnacle has been reached here. There will be millions of people all over the world who will now be asking not "how much money is saved by re-using those rockets?" nor even "why did the third rocket recovery fail?", but "what's a Tesla Roadster"... the first car in space! Wikipedia is just feeding that product inquisitiveness. Don't kid yourselves. (talk) 20:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
And how many can afford one?!! And how many can afford a Falcon Heavy? Man alive, this is stretching product placement to the extreme. Think of the readers please. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Except that part of the story was that it was specifically a Tesla... -DJSasso (talk) 19:53, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
It was just claimed that no one cares about the make of car and the make of car is not important. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No it was claimed that no one cared about the options of the car or what model of a Tesla it was. ie the things you would be told about in an advertisement. Just stating the brand of a car is different since the reason the story was a such a big deal was that it was a Tesla, specifically HIS Tesla. -DJSasso (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Your claim is that his product placement is important to the advertising stunt, so we agree it's advertising - all of it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia has already placed product by mentioning the commercial company "SpaceX" on its main page. But apparently that's of no concern? Seriously. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Seriously. Things can be written like ad copy, and things can be written less like ad copy - that's what NOTAD is for. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Which, given his current wealth, he could probably replace within 30 seconds.--WaltCip (talk) 20:01, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
But that's nothing to do with it! It's about the story, it's about what's in the news, and that's his Tesla rocketing past Mars. Come on. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
If only they put a Coca-Cola bottle inside the car's cup holder. Then they could have put the first soda into space while they were at it.--WaltCip (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, and this is really important, they didn't. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
And why it's stating that commercial company SpaceX has launched a big rocket depositing a Tesla into space. Perspective people. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The story that most people are talking about is the car in space, not the rocket that launched it. Just because it may have started out as advertising doesn't mean it can't end up being newsworthy. There are plenty of cases throughout the years where an ad itself has become a news story. A recent example is the Burger King commercial that triggered everyone's Google Home devices. Just because something was intended as advertising, does not stop it from ending up a news story. In this case the car orbiting the sun ended up a much bigger story than what the rocket was. -DJSasso (talk) 19:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
And you managed to say all that, without any product placement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Turning quickly into WP:POINT. I suggest an uninvolved admin take a look at this and judge whether it's an error and/or close it down. We're not gravitating to consensus, and the fact that people are all worked up about advertising a $150,000 car but not worked up about advertising a $10m rocket which will make orders of magnitude more revenue for Musk means that there's clearly a misunderstanding about the ideas of "product placement", "advertising", etc here that are current intractable. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
POINT has nothing to do with anything, here. The objection has been made to tone down the advertising, not ramp it up. It's a compromise between the ITNers, who somehow believe everyone is talking about this and reigning in the advertising-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Sorry Alan, you're wrong again, you're making a POINT by saying things like "And you managed to say all that, without any product placement.", "so we agree it's advertising - all of it.", "Well you're [sic] comment managed to say all that "important" stuff, without any product placement." etc, that's a problem now. I suggest you do "reign" (sic) it in a little. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for the misspellings and word choice errors -- your POINT about English is pointy, the rest is just compromise between those who support more advertising and those who support less. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
As I said before, go get an RFC, this isn't the place to debate it as it's clearly something that some people get extremely exercised about. We name commercial companies and their objects on the main page from time to time, this one happens to be the most dramatic and worldly story of its type, yet all it seems to have created in some quarters is a bunch of heat and no light. The genuine excitement in children around the world (and in those I have) about a Tesla in space is all the definitive proof I need to know it's a good blurb. Obfuscate it if you like, make it "A large rocket takes off" if you wish, but there are still going to be some of us out there who would like detail and who realise the difference between putting a Coca Cola logo on the outside the rocket and mentioning the actual vehicle type which is heading towards Mars at 11 km/s. I'm through arguing over nothing here, this won't change, but seriously, if you're that bothered, I'll look forward to the RFC which considers this kind of thing across all of the main page. I won't hold my breath (sadly for you all). The Rambling Man (talk) 22:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
You are excerised about this, that's . . . odd. Your children's story is touching but also quite irrelevant to it being product placement. You somehow think that discussion cannot ameliorate ad copy in Wikipedia - that's just how its done, all the time. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:51, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Alan, re-read, I'm not exercised at all. I'm not the one making all the POINTS, all the fuss. For the third or fourth time, you're in the minority, your continual badgering just helps Elon, your extrapolations are unwelcome (and actually getting close to NPA), you're really looking for an RFC which I know you won't file. So here endeth the debate for us! Good luck with your journey. In the meantime, TESLA!!!!!!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:54, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
You mean, you were not talking about yourself when you said people are very excercized - your lack of knowledge of other's feelings is clearly not something you should speculate about then. Your appeal to some slight voting majority is basic logic fallacy, and has nothing to do with anything. POINT does not mean saying something you do not like. There is no NPA, here. As for whether discussing the advertising is helping or hurting Elon Musk, that's totally irrelevant to everything, here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • If the car in space really is an important part of the story to many people and is used to get kids intersted in science and space exploration then i change my 'vote' here (also to just get this closer to being over with lol). No issue with the 'advertisement' myself but thought of it as a mere factoid with the main story being the maiden flight. But it seems it is a big deal to many people and hence more than just a tacked on factoid. (talk) 21:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The unusual test payload was a huge part of the notability of the event. The text absolutely should mention that, since reliable sources clearly saw fit to cover it very extensively as a major part of the event. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:23, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Consensus check[edit]

Just so we can keep track of the consensus over the clash of personalities. --Jayron32 20:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Status quo (9)
  • The Rambling Man
  • Tone
  • Jmchutchinson
  • Jayron32
  • MPS1992
  • Djsasso
  • Seraphimblade
  • Fgf10
  • (331dot see next section)
Edit in some way, but retain mention of car/dummy payload/etc. (5)
  • 331dot(as a compromise, but prefers status quo)
  • WaltCip
Falcon Heavy's dummy payload in space, pictured with Earth in the background
  • My suggested edit: The reusable spacecraft Falcon Heavy makes its maiden flight, launching a car (pictured with the planet Earth in the background) as a dummy payload into space. --PFHLai (talk) 23:59, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I have no objection to either dropping the clause as below, or editing out the product placement with "car" or "sports car." I also would have no objection to getting rid of whole the blurb entirely. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:29, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
  • MPS1992
Get rid of it entirely, just mention rocket (5)
  • Signedzzz
  • Modest Genius
  • (Alanscottwalker - actually, per above - adding a bit of rationale for clarity we are featuring (bolding) the rocket article in the blurb, so that's the consensus focus, and presumably if the article is done correctly, it will give people everything else -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:43, 9 February 2018 (UTC))
Remove the SpaceX blurb (1)
People who understand this is not how we arrive at a consensus in Wikipedia discussions (1)
  • The Rambling Man

Why are we even discussing this? Let's face it, if it hadn't been for the quirkiness of the Tesla, most mainstream news outlets woulnd't even have bothered covering the launch. The car is an intrinsic part of the newsworthiness of the story. Fgf10 (talk) 22:52, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah its pretty crazy, considering the reason it is a news story in mainstream sources is because it is a Tesla. -DJSasso (talk) 01:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, much like the U.S. federal government shutdown, this has dropped from the news cycle. It was a novelty, but that was all it ever was. I suggest we pull from the main page. WaltCip (talk) 02:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Vanishingly close to 100% of the stories posted on ITN roll of the news cycle in 24-48 hours. If you were consistent to apply this logic to every story we post, ITN would have zero stories. But, of course you aren't interested in being consistent. You just have a personal reason why you just don't like this one story, and have decided you'll throw anything against the wall to see what will get it taken down. Stop wasting your time and energy. It isn't getting pulled, and it probably isn't getting modified.--Jayron32 04:11, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Why aren't you advocating pulling the entirety of ITN? None of them are in the next cycle any more. Also, the fact that you describe it as a novelty shows you don't understand the story at all. Fgf10 (talk) 07:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm more highlighting the absurdity of the process, where "consensus" that is applied to one story can, in a matter of a week or month, suddenly vanish when it comes to another story. You're right. I don't like it. But as we've seen, if enough people don't like something, that can be sufficient to get a story taken down.--WaltCip (talk) 12:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Why #shouldn't# ITN have the occasional 'quirky, peculiar or out of the usual run of things' entry? After all the rest of the Main Page covers topics we-the-readers might not otherwise have looked at. Jackiespeel (talk) 10:33, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Does anyone still participating in this discussion honestly believe that anything useful will happen? It's time someone uninvolved boxed this up and sent us all away to do something useful. --Jayron32 13:07, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm also intrigued at how long this discussion has become. This might be the longest post-posting discussion we've ever had on an ITN item, though I note that, as you say, most of it has devolved into unproductive bickering. Ironically, the discussion on this car might have provided far more advertisement for Elon Musk's Tesla brand than the posting which generated said discussion.--WaltCip (talk) 13:14, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Indeed. --Jayron32 13:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


The Main Page will, at least once a week, contain a mention of something you consider too obscure/not interesting enough to be so promoted, no matter how well the article is written. The equivalent pages on topics you think fascinating and worthy of mention will rarely appear on the MP. (They may, however, appear on the other-language Wikipedia MPs). Take on the challenge of developing pages on 'your' topics (making use of relevant places for necessary Original Research).

The MP is not the front page of a newspaper/weekly equivalent - so stories In The News (with its limited space) may not be those filling many column inches in Actually Existing News Publications; WP is also a global presence, so may pick up on things outside your geographical area.

On This Day can also only pick out a few entries - and may rotate the selection over several years. The full list for each day can be readily accessed: find ones that occurred #4 and #9 years ago, and improve them for the 'round figure' #5 and #0 anniversaries.

Wikipedians' interests are individually interested and collectively likely to be concentrated in particular areas (which may vary between different language versions). Thus some topics are likely to occur more frequently than would be expected - and there will always be chance groupings of mentions in a particular field.

Some topics will generate much discussion on the talk page - either because they 'startle' people/are not considered 'work and public library' safe etc, or for 'no obvious reason.' Most will be exchanged for new topics within a short time anyway.

Most people find most coverage on the MP 'reasonable or vaguely interesting or just neutral' or there would be significantly more debate here or in a suitable equivalent page.

And, above all, Wikipedia is there to be used, developed, entertain and occasionally startle or annoy. Keep on developing it, so that the theoretical page 'Last persons born before (our predecessor) Wikipedia' can be created.

Written partly to allow the archive bot to work. Jackiespeel (talk) 11:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Well said. --Jayron32 12:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Footnote: Yes. As to the topic that prompted the above note, it's incredible that putatively reasonable [citation needed] people would expend 6,200 words on such a minor, passing issue. Sca (talk) 14:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
added necessary cn tag--Jayron32 14:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
If you want this perennial speech to last beyond the next archive, you could edit the FAQ. Art LaPella (talk) 14:52, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
As I said, partly to help the archive bot - and saying what most people probably think when these discussions happen.
And nobody says my 'Last surviving pre-Wikipedia people' idea is too implausible (though will be fully discussed a century hence). Jackiespeel (talk) 15:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Can we pin this to the top of the Main Page? Better yet, can we mandate it so that every reader/editor must read this opus before they can make a comment about video games, Gibraltar, birds, insects on the main page, etc.?--WaltCip (talk) 01:48, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Make that Asian birds. ;-) – Sca (talk) 03:09, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
    • We could theoretically require all posters to pass a test on all the Very Important Things that have accumulated at the top of this page, from Question Help to daily page views. But even our regulars would fail that test. We could make the FAQ link bigger. But that would make everything else relatively smaller. Art LaPella (talk) 02:12, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Adapt to taste - though I would like 'a honourable (or at least a passing) mention' for doing the summary.
Most people take the points as given, and accept that the primary functions of the Main Page are to (a) shift material from the vast field of unknown unknowns on Wikipedia briefly into the area of the known unknowns, (b) to remind them to 'do something with their pet topics' so they will feature on the MP eventually, and (c) occasionally annoy or pique readers sufficiently to comment 'why, oh why... (was this inflicted on the Main Page which has never done us any harm) when it may annoy children/make me choke on my tea-break drink and biscuit and ruin my keyboard as a result etc.' Jackiespeel (talk) 11:07, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm more partial to coffee and doughnuts. There's nothing like your desk and keyboard smelling like old coffee for days after a Main Page-induced expectoration catastrophe.--WaltCip (talk) 14:17, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
'Teabreak/lunchbreak incident' then :)
We all know what a 'startling entry' is when we see it (and a spaceship with a car attached to it is probably startling enough to wander over from 'some astronomy/spaceship themed wiki') even if we cannot define such beforehand Jackiespeel (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Period! Face-wink.svg Sca (talk) 23:10, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
How is it that more up to date news items are not on this page? Such as the tragedy at the high school in Parkland, Florida.Dogru144 (talk) 00:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
@Dogru144: Items are not posted immediately to the "In the news" section because the article's quality (among other things) must be assessed first. Feel free to join the discussion at Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#Florida_school_shooting. –FlyingAce✈hello 00:22, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Tragedy is the wrong word. At this point, it's a statistic.--WaltCip (talk) 11:59, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
School shootings in the entire rest of the world - so rare as to be notable: in the US they (and other 'guns on legs' incidents) are 'merely a statistic.'
A legislative suggestion - do not annoy the gun lobby with constraints on guns - license 'owning bullets.' (talk) 16:01, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Now, people critiquing are people reading, and no one is forced to read such critiques -- some critiques can even prove useful,Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells complaining about Final Fantasy 9¾ appearing on the Main Page is not especially useful.--WaltCip (talk) 20:46, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Surely Disgusted... should be complaining about FF 9 3/4 #not# appearing on the Main Page?
Even if there was a wiki for displaying different versions of the Wikipedia MP with the ITN- and OTD- equivalents being used to display material not appearing on the WP MP there would be claims of material omitted.
If everybody was happy with the Main Page all the time then there would actually be something wrong with it. Jackiespeel (talk) 22:35, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Balance in the featured article choices[edit]

I have absolutely no objection to today's FA (Space Seed Star Trek episode) or yesterday's (Fantastic magazine) - fine pieces of work both - but the choices aren't balanced: having American science fiction articles as the FA two days in a row isn't a good choice, considering the huge breadth of articles there are to choose from, covering different topics and geographic regions. Need more balance! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:18, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

How ironic it is to see this thread directly below one in which editors are opining their frustrations with complaints about the Main Page.--WaltCip (talk) 11:57, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The selection of TFA pretty much reflects the balance of topics which are at featured status. Not much to complain about really, if the IP wants different topics and geographic regions featured, the IP should write some FAs. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
IP user, if you dislike what appears on the MP, please participate in the processes that determine what appears there, or work on articles so that there is a greater variety of articles to choose from. 331dot (talk) 12:04, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Even if 'a considerably wider range of WP articles' were in the pool there would be occasional statistical flukes/a group of articles being updated together.
IP - on April 1 there is likely to be an excess of bizarre entries.
There is a slight case for ensuring an apparent randomness on the MP where it is feasible. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:27, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
It is random, every day, almost without exception, particularly as each section is produced in isolation from every other section. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:38, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Actually, random selection of articles would guarantee that there would be more occurances (not less) of topics repeated on consecutive days. That's how randomness works. --Jayron32 17:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I said 'apparent randomness' - and there can be some 'observing of other sections' and reordering occasionally.
As Abraham Lincoln might have said - you cannot please all the people all the time. Jackiespeel (talk) 18:32, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
But you can't pick your friends' noses. --Jayron32 18:44, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
You can, but you probably shouldn't. - NsTaGaTr (Talk) 19:04, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Only if you go with them to the rhinoplasty clinic and they ask. Jackiespeel (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia news[edit]

Why did it take so long for wikipedia to put the south africa president resigning on the news yet it was quicker to put the shooting on it — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 12:13, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@ Usually it depends on the quality of the article. The article must be suitable for linking from the main page, including being properly referenced and not containing unsuitable material. Including it as a news item also relies on the article being updated to fully include the topic that is in the news, again properly referenced. I assume that in the case of the SA president, it took longer for that to happen than for the Florida shooting story.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
@ I would add that the English Wikipedia in general likely has more contributors from the US and/or interested in US news enough to improve the article, than we have contributors from South Africa. This is part of Wikipedia's systemic bias. If you don't like what is posted to ITN, or want things posted faster, I invite you to participate at the nominations page, WP:ITNC, so you can help work to address this bias. 331dot (talk) 12:55, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not really news in the traditional sense. It is new encyclopedia articles that happen to be in the news when nominated. When quality is good enough and there is consensus that any given event is noteworthy enough, it gets posted(which can get quite heated with a lot of bickering). In other words, it is not a news ticker. Small note to the posters above, i am quite certain pings don't work for ip editors. At least i have never noticed any effect when someone pinged me, haha (talk) 14:13, 18 February 2018 (UTC)